Two by Two

Two by Two
THE KEN PREMIUM

Listen to full episodes 1-4 weeks before others

₹ 299.00/month

The Two by Two podcast is a premium business podcast from The Ken that investigates, discusses and breaks down the most important business stories around you. Hosted from The Ken's newsroom by business journalists Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan, Two by Two will feature guests and experts from across the industry and academia to talk about issues no one else is talking about.

  1. The invisible whale that capsized India's leaky options boats

    20 HR AGO • THE KEN PREMIUM ONLY

    The invisible whale that capsized India's leaky options boats

    In an unprecedented crackdown, India’s capital markets regulator SEBI has fined the global trading giant Jane Street over ₹4,800 crore, accusing it of systematically manipulating the Indian equity options market. The penalty—one of the largest ever imposed by SEBI—stemming from an investigation into just 21 trading days, could expand significantly, with potential illicit gains estimated between ₹30,000 and ₹40,000 crore still under review. First reported by Anand Kalyanaraman, The Ken’s finance editor, the case centres on Jane Street’s alleged use of “violent expiry” tactics: buying large positions in call or put options and then executing disproportionate trades in the cash segment of the Sensex or Nifty to sway index levels in their favour. On other days, they profited from “quiet expiry” strategies by offloading options to retail investors, extracting premiums in a manner which signals towards “telltale manipulation” devoid of any economic rationale. The fallout strikes at the core of India’s derivatives-heavy market. With over 80% of global equity options contracts (by volume) traded daily in India, the segment has become a high-risk zone for retail participants—90% of whom reportedly lost money between FY2021 and FY2024, racking up collective losses of ₹1.8 lakh crore. The lottery-like appeal of low-cost, high-reward bets has turned into a trap for many. Jane Street has defended its actions as “basic index arbitrage”. The firm is likely to challenge the ban, even as SEBI continues to scrutinise a broader timeline of trades. Hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan are joined by Anand Kalyanaraman, The Ken’s finance editor and Mayank Bansal, President of a UAE-based hedge fund, who helped break the story, to discuss how all of this played out and what happens next. Welcome to episode 51 of Two by Two. - Additional reading Is Jane Street the all-powerful hidden hand in India’s stock market? - https://the-ken.com/story/is-jane-street-the-all-powerful-hidden-hand-in-indias-stock-market/ The mystery fund playing god and wreaking havoc on the stock market - https://the-ken.com/story/the-mystery-fund-playing-god-and-wreaking-havoc-on-the-stock-market/ Did NSE sleep at the wheel in the Jane Street Saga? - https://the-ken.com/long_and_short/did-nse-sleep-at-the-wheel-in-the-jane-street-saga/ - Check out The Ken's new careers podcast, 90,000 hours: Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5HEi59iUPRMMFfUvxeio47 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/90-000-hours/id1826777519 - This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

    1h 33m
  2. 10 JUL • THE KEN PREMIUM ONLY

    In an AI age, India does not have an open source strategy

    In the 50th episode of Two by Two, hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan examine the contrasting open-source trajectories of China, the US, and India in the context of AI, and where India fell short. While China, despite being authoritarian, has surged ahead in open-source AI leadership with models like DeepSeek R1, India has fallen behind. The 2010s are framed as a “lost decade” for Indian open source, characterised by a vibrant tech ecosystem that failed to foster a meaningful contribution culture. China’s rise can be attributed to its unique mix of strategic intent, creative insecurity (following the Huawei ban in 2019), and human capital. It views open source as a geopolitical tool, not a philosophy. India, by contrast, is stuck in a “third way”—neither as open and capitalistic as the US nor as strategically pragmatic as China. What would it take for Indian to do the same? Bring academia to the forefront, fund open source efforts without restrictions, and build a developer culture driven by curiosity, not just career advancement. Open source needs to be viewed more broadly than just code—it’s an innovation infrastructure and a form of digital autonomy. Without this shift, India risks missing the AI bus entirely. And joining them for the discussion are two wonderful guests. Pranay Kotasthane is deputy director at the Takshashila Institution and chairs its High Tech Geopolitics Programme. He co-writes Anticipating the Unintended, a newsletter on public policy ideas and frameworks, and co-hosts Puliyabaazi, a popular Hindi-Urdu podcast on politics, policy, and technology. Kailash Nadh is the CTO of Zerodha*. Kailash calls himself a developer, tinkerer and absurdist. Kailash is a hobbyist developer who has been working on open source projects for the last 25 years. - Additional reading: Why China is giving away its tech for free - https://www.economist.com/business/2025/06/17/why-china-is-giving-away-its-tech-for-free Anticipating the Unintended (newsletter) - https://publicpolicy.substack.com/ Deepseek, AI sovereignty, and India - https://nadh.in/blog/deepseek-ai-sovereignty-india/ - This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. - *Zerodha’s perennial fund Rainmatter Capital is an investor in The Ken.

    1h 52m
  3. 3 JUL • THE KEN PREMIUM ONLY

    GCCs vs Indian IT companies

    Microsoft, Amazon, Google, GS, JP Morgan Chase, Deloitte, Walmart, Bosch, Adobe, Target, Salesforce, AstraZeneca. What’s common to these dozen organisations? Other than the fact that they are, well, large, well-respected and innovative? They all operate their own development and innovation centres in India. Often sprawling campuses and offices across multiple cities, filled with Indian engineers, project managers, product experts, designers, HR, finance and, well, virtually every function that’s required to run a business. They’re called GCCs. Global Capability Centres. There are over 1,000 global organisations that collectively operate over 1,700 GCCs across India. They employ over 2 million professionals. They generate over $40 billion in annual value, set to surpass $100 billion in another five years. So, what’s the problem? Well, most GCCs are technically doing work that could have been outsourced to Indian outsourcers like Infosys, TCS, Wipro, HCL, etc. In fact, GCCs are so successful a strategy that they’re growing much faster than Indian outsourcers. And as if taking away potential revenue from Indian outsourcers weren’t enough, GCCs are now also taking away talent. That’s right. They’re hiring experienced and talented professionals using higher salaries, better brands and the promise of better work. It appears to be a zero-sum game. A pie that isn’t growing. Both our guests for today’s episode are experts on GCCs, and they had a lot to say about the same. Our first guest is Narayana Ramamurthy, whom you’ll hear us address as ‘Naru’ throughout the discussion. Naru is the founder and CEO of Workfutr, a company which enables US and European organisations to harness India's offshore capability in technology, operations, and transformation. And our second guest is Karthik Padmanabhan, who is the managing partner for GCCs at Zinnow, a global management and consulting firm founded in 2002 that partners and advises global enterprises, outsourcers, PE firms around AI, automation, outsourcing and well, GCCs. Welcome to episode 49 of Two by Two. - Additional reading: ANSR’s Ahuja duo on why “everybody, from Victoria’s Secret to Google, will do pretty much the same thing in India” - https://the-ken.com/story/ansrs-ahuja-duo-on-why-everybody-from-victorias-secret-to-google-will-do-pretty-much-the-same-thing-in-india/ GCCs could pose a potential threat to Indian IT - https://analyticsindiamag.com/gcc/gccs-could-pose-a-potential-threat-to-indian-it/ - This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

    1h 21m
  4. 25 JUN • THE KEN PREMIUM ONLY

    'Your duopoly is my opportunity' — India’s third-place challengers

    Meesho, Rapido, and Zepto have managed to challenge what seemed like firmly established duopolies, such as Amazon and Flipkart, Uber and Ola, and Blinkit and Swiggy Instamart, respectively. The third-place player trying to break the duopoly with its ‘challenger DNA’ came in and caught up with the incumbents by targeting the unserved or underserved markets they overlooked, innovation, be it through providing a zero commission platform for sellers, delivering groceries in minutes or connecting drivers to riders based on a subscription model. But what other factors cause this disruption in these duopolies? A critical factor enabling these new entrants is often incumbent complacency combined with venture capital pressures in India, which push established players towards short-term profits over broader market expansion. In episode 48 of Two by Two, we discuss how these disruptors came about, and based on their journey, can we observe other such disruptive third players in India? Joining hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan was Professor Rajendra Srivastava, former dean at the Indian School of Business and presently the executive director at the ISB Centre for Business Innovation. – Additional reading: Does your company have an India strategy – https://hbr.org/2023/06/does-your-company-have-an-india-strategy ( https://hbr.org/2023/06/does-your-company-have-an-india-strategy ) Why Indigo Airlines may be India’s best export to the world after cricket and bollywood? – https://medium.com/@rks_72086/why-indigo-airlines-may-be-indias-best-export-to-the-world-after-cricket-and-bollywood-5beb92182343 ( https://medium.com/@rks_72086/why-indigo-airlines-may-be-indias-best-export-to-the-world-after-cricket-and-bollywood-5beb92182343 ) Market-based assets and shareholder value – https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/002224299806200102 ( https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/002224299806200102 ) Peripheral Vision: Detecting the Weak Signals that Will Make or Break Your Company written by George S. Day and Paul J. H. Schoemaker (recommended by Professor Shrivastava) The Rule of Three: Surviving and Thriving in Competitive Markets written by Jagdish Sheth and Rajendra Sisodia (recommended by Professor Shrivastava) Additional listening: Is Zepto a gold medallist or a bronze medallist? – https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/is-zepto-a-gold-medalist-or-a-bronze-medalist/ ( https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/is-zepto-a-gold-medalist-or-a-bronze-medalist/ ) Vidit Aatrey on building a problem-first mindset into Meesho’s culture – https://the-ken.com/podcasts/first-principles/vidit-aatrey-on-building-a-problem-first-mindset-into-meeshos-culture/ ( https://the-ken.com/podcasts/first-principles/vidit-aatrey-on-building-a-problem-first-mindset-into-meeshos-culture/ ) – This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

    1h 25m
  5. Who broke Bengaluru, and how do we fix our cities?

    19 JUN

    Who broke Bengaluru, and how do we fix our cities?

    Bengaluru, India’s tech hub, is unfortunately also a poster child for urban chaos. A city bursting at the seams, where unplanned growth has pushed its infrastructure to breaking point. Imagine roads that can’t handle the sheer volume of vehicles, leading to traffic jams that eat away at hours of your day. It’s not a minor inconvenience; it’s a daily grind that impacts productivity and quality of life. And it doesn’t stop there. Bengaluru is constantly battling water scarcity. When the monsoons hit, it’s a different kind of nightmare. Even something as fundamental as waste management is a perpetual struggle, with the city’s rapid expansion overwhelming existing systems. Ultimately, Bengaluru’s plight is a reminder of what happens when urban development races ahead without a long-term vision. It’s a web of planning failures, governance challenges, and population boom. Until these issues are addressed, Bengaluru and many other Indian cities will continue to grapple with their struggles. But despite all of these issues, what is the fix for Bengaluru’s problems? Hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar try to uncover where it went wrong and what the eventual fix will be for its issues, along with our guest Pravar Chaudhary, creative director at Bengawalk, a creative agency that tells stories about urbanisation and climate change in India. Bengawalk, for the netizens of Bengaluru, is a familiar face with their regular updates on what’s going on in the city and the inconveniences and quirks of Bengaluru on Instagram, X (formerly Twitter) and Youtube. They break down the cause of citizens’ frustration with Bengaluru with their detailed breakdowns, and they do this beautifully with their videos, writing, and design published online. You can follow all of their work here. – Additional reading: Bengaluru’s solutions are Bengaluru’s problems – https://the-ken.com/the-nutgraf/bengalurus-solutions-are-bengalurus-problems/ Bengaluru’s solution for its traffic mess that tech couldn’t fix: even more tech – https://the-ken.com/story/bengalurus-solution-for-its-traffic-mess-that-tech-couldnt-fix-even-more-tech/ It sucks to be a tenant in Bengaluru right now – https://the-ken.com/story/it-sucks-to-be-a-renter-in-bengaluru-right-now/ Videos referenced: The never ending construction of Bengaluru – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV7s_aks_4A – This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. Want to attend The Ken’s next event—How AI is Breaking and Remaking the Way Products are Built?🎟️ Join us in person or on the livestream—tickets here

    1h 36m
  6. Where AI can and can’t replace human coaching

    12 JUN

    Where AI can and can’t replace human coaching

    This episode of Two by Two was first published on 12 June 2025. Premium subscribers of The Ken have full access to ALL our premium audio. They are available exclusively via The Ken’s subscriber apps. If you don’t have them, just download one and log in to unlock everything. Get your premium subscription using this link. Not a Premium subscriber? You can subscribe to The Ken Premium on Apple Podcasts for an easy monthly price (Rs 299 in India). The channel includes ALL our premium podcasts. – Can an AI bot coach and counsel you? AI is getting better every day and bringing us closer to a scalable, always-on support and a model for both leadership coaching and mental performance. This makes it much more attractive to organisations because it’s less expensive, contextual, personal, self-learning and scalable within organisations. There are futures where this may become the default, and one-on-one human coaching and therapy may become the exception. In this week’s episode of Two by Two, hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar discuss whether AI can fit into the mould of coaching and therapy, and if there is a future where it becomes the norm. And joining them to discuss and debate this are Gaston Schmitz, partner and founder coach, Asian Leadership Institute, which provides leaders and high-performing teams with executive coaching. Our second guest is Aakriti Joanna, founder and CEO of Kaha Mind, which is a leading mental health organisation for individuals and organisations in India. – Additional reading: The AI chatbots offering workplace counsel – https://www.ft.com/content/ede799c4-8a1c-4c39-8a9b-01899d5b6754 – This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. Want to attend The Ken’s next event—How AI is Breaking and Remaking the Way Products are Built?🎟️ Join us in person or on the livestream—tickets here

    1h 24m
  7. Are we seeing the unbundling of quick commerce?

    5 JUN

    Are we seeing the unbundling of quick commerce?

    This episode of Two by Two was first published on 05 June 2025. Premium subscribers of The Ken have full access to ALL our premium audio. They are available exclusively via The Ken’s subscriber apps. If you don’t have them, just download one and log in to unlock everything. Get your premium subscription using this link. Not a Premium subscriber? You can subscribe to The Ken Premium on Apple Podcasts for an easy monthly price (Rs 299 in India). The channel includes ALL our premium podcasts. – Bigbasket, Blinkit, Instamart, and Zepto are all fighting to capture more and more share of the quick-commerce market. But as they scale, a new set of players fulfilling one use case in minutes is entering the market with hype and funding. Does this mean we will see an unbundling of quick commerce from being an everything store to having separate apps for everything? Or is it just another cycle of unbundling and bundling? Hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar discuss in the latest episode of Two by Two with Madhav Kasturia, founder and CEO of Zippee, and Sanjay Ramakrishnan, founder and general partner, Multiply Ventures. – This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. Want to attend The Ken’s next event—How AI is Breaking and Remaking the Way Products are Built?🎟️ Join us in person or on the livestream—tickets here

    1h 16m
  8. Who will be the next Blusmart?

    29 MAY • THE KEN PREMIUM ONLY

    Who will be the next Blusmart?

    This episode of Two by Two was first published on 01 May 2025. Premium subscribers of The Ken have full access to ALL our premium audio. They are available exclusively via The Ken’s subscriber apps. If you don’t have them, just download one and log in to unlock everything. Get your premium subscription using this link. Not a Premium subscriber? You can subscribe to The Ken Premium on Apple Podcasts for an easy monthly price (Rs 299 in India). The channel includes ALL our premium podcasts. - That’s the question hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar discuss with Vikas Bardia, co-founder and CEO of Shoffr, and Arpit Agarwal, investment partner at Blume Ventures. Blusmart used to represent success, scale, and customer love—a reputation secured as an insurgent against incumbents like Uber and Ola. At its height, Blusmart had around 8,000 cabs in Delhi, Mumbai and Bengaluru—hardly a small number. But now, things are tumbling down. In episode 40 of Two by Two, they discuss the reasons why most of the online ride-hailing space looks the way it does because of VC money, why debt financing is preferred by players who own their own fleet, the different models at play presently and a whole lot more. But the most important question we try to answer is what happens next, and who—if anyone—can become the next Blusmart? Or fill the space they have left? Welcome to episode 40 of Two by Two. – If you are an existing Premium subscriber, you already have full access to ALL our premium audio. They are available exclusively via The Ken’s subscriber apps. If you don’t have them, just download one and log in to unlock everything.  Not a Premium subscriber? You can subscribe to The Ken Premium on Apple Podcasts for an easy monthly price (Rs 299 in India). The channel includes ALL our premium podcasts. – Additional reading: Blusmart and the dogs that didn’t bark – https://the-ken.com/the-nutgraf/blusmart-and-the-dogs-that-didnt-bark/ Blusmart’s relationship with co-founder’s listed company could prove costly – https://the-ken.com/story/blusmarts-relationship-with-co-founders-listed-company-could-prove-costly/ Additional listening: How will Ola and Uber avoid ‘death by a thousand cuts’? – https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/how-will-ola-and-uber-avoid-death-by-a-thousand-cuts/ – This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. Want to attend The Ken’s next event—How AI is Breaking and Remaking the Way Products are Built?🎟️ Join us in person or on the livestream—tickets here

    1h 39m

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The Two by Two podcast is a premium business podcast from The Ken that investigates, discusses and breaks down the most important business stories around you. Hosted from The Ken's newsroom by business journalists Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan, Two by Two will feature guests and experts from across the industry and academia to talk about issues no one else is talking about.

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